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What’s behind the current Bull Market, DeFi, and governance tokens with Raffael Huber, Head of Research at Bitcoin Suisse

As the head of research at Bitcoin Suisse, Raffael Huber's job is to stay on top of the latest development when it comes to crypto. In this episode, we discuss the drivers of the current bull market and deep dive into the DeFi hype. Raffael shares how to evaluate interesting crypto projects, the monetary premium of Bitcoin and Ethereum, and why in the end, it all boils down to trust.

Unforkable makes crypto more fun, engaging and accessible for everyone. Jonas @unforkablepod https://twitter.com/unforkablepod is talking to the most exciting minds of the cryptosphere to bring you the stories and backgrounds we all have been waiting for.

About Raffael Huber:

Raffael holds a Ph.D. in chemistry, and his job is to stay on top of everything that happens in the crazy fast-changing world of cryptocurrencies.

In this episode, we talk about the monetary premium of Bitcoin and other crypto. We discuss the benefits of trading versus hodling, tribalism, and why it is important to keep an open mind when evaluating new crypto projects. We discuss the current crypto bull market and why this time it really is different. We also cover DeFi, yield farming, and liquidity mining, all of which will be explained in the following interview with Dr. Raffael Huber.

Find out more about Raffael's work at: bitcoinsuisse.com/research

Music by Yung Kartz

Transcript

Please note that this is an automated transcription. Errors, typos and other weird stuff are to be expected.

Intro

Raffael Huber:  

I have more of a problem with people thinking they are smarter than the market. 

The markets are always right. They're always right.  Never blame the market. It's always, you. 

 markets are a voting machine in the short run and a weighing machine in the long run and that's beautifully true in crypto because if there is hype around one thing, then everybody votes and they vote with their money that this should, this should be it now. And then you get these, these hype cycles, but in the long run it's really important to think about what is it that should make this token valuable in two years, five years, 10 years, 40, 50 years maybe

Like if you, if you start climbing, you don't immediately go for, uh, the, Eiger-Nordwand  or the Matterhorn or whatever. I don't know actually, which, which paths are hard. 

Jonas: some nice Swiss references.

Raffael Huber: if you, if you're a chess player, you don't immediatly start by trying to beat Magnus Carlsen, you start small.

I'm a Hodler 

Jonas: But that's a good analogy. Cause I, I believe that you should, I'm a Hodler myself and I believe that , you cannot really beat the market because you are not really smarter than all of the other people combined and also in chess, you are now not smarter than the best chess computers .

So wouldn't that mean, Hey, you shouldn't even try to trade, just go and hold on and make your bet that this market will go up?

Hello and welcome

  

this and many other questions will be answered in this episode of Unforkable, the podcast that brings you chooses stories straight from the blockchain. 

My name is Jonas. And today on the show, you can eavesdrop on my conversation with Rafael Hoover, the head of research at Bitcoin Suisse. 

Rafael holds a PhD in chemistry and his job is to stay on top of everything that happens in the crazy fast changing world of cryptocurrencies. 

In this episode, we talk about the monetary premium of Bitcoin and other crypto. We discussed the benefits of trading versus huddling, tribalism, and why it is important to keep an open mind to an evaluating new crypto projects. We discussed the current crypto bull market and why this time it really is different. We also cover DeFi, yield farming and liquidity mining. All of which will be explained in the following wide spanning interview with Dr. Raffael Huber. 

Also quick side note, none of what you hear is financial advice and for informational purposes only. With that out of the way, let's start the show.

Raffael Huber's Background

Raffael Huber: So my name is Raffael Huber I'm the head of research at Bitcoin Suisse. Generally we give insights into the crypto markets, both from the fundamental side, but also what's exciting at the moment in crypto.

Jonas: You are actually doctor Raffael Huber. So what kind of doctor are you?  Give us a short bio about yourself.

Raffael Huber: So my background is in science. I've studied chemistry and done my doctorate in chemistry, my PhD.  So I'm really coming more from the traditional research side and not necessarily from computer science. But I was very interested in crypto, technology and cryptocurrencies. Once I first heard about them, I was immediately captivated. I heard about Bitcoin before, but I got really interested with Ethereum and smart contracts I think once you really go down to the crypto rabbit hole, uh, it's hard to get out again.  It's just so fascinating how much happens and  at which pace things happen.

Jonas: Could you relate somehow what you learned from your school and educational backgrounds in chemistry, to crypto.

Raffael Huber: Well, I would say yes, but of course not the technical stuff. Um, so it doesn't help you if you know how to make a certain molecule for crypto. but what does help is the tools for research. Um, so it's always the same you need to get your information. You need to assess the quality of a source. You need to gather data. And then you need to put that together in a nice way and, uh, see what conclusions you can reasonably draw from those data points that you collected. And I think that's, that's basically the same in any topic that you would like to understand more deeply and from a very objective view.

Head of research

Jonas: Your job is to look into interesting crypto projects, et cetera. So do I have to imagine that you are on Twitter all day long and on Reddit, or how is your work?

Raffael Huber: Actually Twitter is an excellent source of very fast information in crypto.  If  a really relevant event happens and I'm thinking back to 2017, for example, where we had multiple episodes were China banned Bitcoin. Often, there was a sharp drop over a short period of time when such news came out and then, if you see this, do you try to find out well, is there anything behind this sharp drop, which doesn't really feel right with what happened before in the market, then you go to Twitter and you see, okay, there's some news about China, banning  Bitcoin once again, they've done so multiple times and they're still not really banned. Now they're even embracing it partially, talking about it in their state owned media. But so yeah, Twitter is usually a good source of information.

But then of course, once you want to look into the details, you, you go much deeper. You, you start on, start reading blog posts of the projects. You start looking into their, uh, Github repositories. You start reading white papers and other materials on how their token economics are on what use cases it could potentially be applied for and so on.

Do you also do proprietary research?

Jonas: Do you also do a proprietary research, where you gather data sets or maybe use data that you have from Bitcoin Suisse to come up with new insights?

Raffael Huber:  We do that occasionally, but not that often. It's, I mean, the crypto space is, is very open and you can actually get a wealth of data just from open APIs and open sources. So that's something that's very cool. I mean, just think about crypto exchanges. Um, you can access all the trades that are happening. You can access the order books. Um, but then on the other hand, you can also look directly on the blockchain, uh, what's going on, what are big holders doing? Crypto whales, are they sending coins to exchanges? Are they rather withdrawing or are they accumulating and so on?

And the blockchain itself is of course also completely open and can give you some nice insights on what people actually are doing or what people are actually using at the moment. This was very relevant this summer. When we have this hype around DeFi and actually the hype has died down, but DeFi is still very, very active. Um, I think like more than 14 billion locked at the moment. And you can, you can see all of this directly on chain.

What is Defi?

Jonas: Speaking of DeFi. Can you quickly give an introduction what DeFi means and then, maybe one cool thing that happened this year, or one story of a Defi project maybe relating to sushi swap or whatever is in your, in your mind, what you thought was  most interesting thing happening this year?

Raffael Huber: Sure. Sure. Uh, so people have been working on protocols  that would fall under DeFi, decentralized finance for quite some time. And, this summer it really took off, but what it all, is, is basically trying to build up some kind of financial infrastructure that is completely open, that is permissionless and that people can just use, even if they don't have access to traditional banking systems.  For us in Switzerland, that's not a problem, everybody has a bank account, but that's not the case everywhere in the world and I think, um, there's of course the speculative side of DeFi where people try to earn the highest yields and so on. And also we're willing to take quite some risks in some cases. And then there's the other side where people are really struggling to get access to suitable banking services and that's partly what DeFi could also offer in the longer run to these people. I mean, just think of the stable coin DAI um, that's actually used a lot in various parts of the world that are maybe not as fortunate as we are here, because for example, their currency is not as stable, so they can use DAI to access synthetic dollars basically, and use that as  store of value and make sure that, what they earned doesn't just get inflated away at like 40% a month or so.

Jonas: So DeFi stands for decentralized finance and is an umbrella term that could mean many different things. DeFi could be a stable coin, but it could also be an application on the blockchain that  allows users, for instance, to lend and borrow crypto and blockchain. But when we talk about the DeFi hype of 2020, we need to understand what liquidity mining and yield farming is

Compound the start of liquidity mining

Raffael Huber: It really kicked off when Compound started liquidity mining and what liquidity mining basically is, is. Compound aims to be a fully decentralized protocol. It was not a fully decentralized protocol before. Um, there were people that had a lot of access to the protocol. So they had sort of admin keys  to control, but now they're going more into the direction of full decentralization. And of course, if you want to still have ways to govern your protocol, you need some kind of mechanism to decide who gets to vote on changes. What they did is to introduce a token called COMP and they just decided to give this out to all users of the platform. So everybody who was borrowing or lending on Compound would get this token. What then happened is that the COMP token attracted a lot of hype and also got quite valuable. And that led to people just depositing as much as possible into Compound to get as much COMP tokens as possible because the amount that you get is related to how much you actually have in the protocol. And, um, so people were also doing strategies like depositing one stable coin, withdrawing another, or borrowing another stable coin against it and so on.

But that's just one example and that's, what really kick-started it. And then there was this wealth of protocols that followed, that used this idea also of liquidity mining to get more value. 

Explain to your uncle what DEFI is

Jonas:  Now we, we touched upon a lot of things. One is  liquidity mining and um, what is the difference to yield farming? I mean, what, what are those two terms I'm sure, uh, if you are in Defi, you've heard those a lot. Um, yields farming and liquidity mining, just in a very basic concept.

Now I like to think about Christmas, Christmas coming up and you're, I'm sure. You're going to meet your family. If everything goes with COVID and then there's the uncle and he asks you, Hey, Raffael what are you doing? I heard about this stuff DeFi. Can you give me like a easy way to understand what's going on in this crazy world of crypto?

Raffael Huber: Yeah. Yeah. Well, if my uncle asked me, I would probably  start by explaining  what Compound and protocols like these are doing. So, they're basically providing  a borrowing lending service where you can deposit a cryptocurrency like Ether, that is your collateral. And let's say you put in a $1,000 worth of ETH, then you can take out maybe $600, $700 worth of DAI. And that's one. One thing that people do, if they need some money, need some access to US dollars but don't want to sell their ETH. So it's something that, uh, traders looking to get more exposure to Ether or also Bitcoin and so on, use. Um, and then liquidity mining is, is basically what I said before. It's it's just a way liquidity mining is a way. Um, that protocols try to incentivize users to use their protocols. So maybe one example would be if you are a customer of a company, let's say you buy Apple products every year for a couple thousand bucks, that then they would, they would give you small parts of some Apple shares, so that the users of the products are actually the ones that also get  some right to vote. And some of the protocol benefits like maybe dividends or so. I think that's probably an easy way to think about liquidity mining. Just a company that gives out shares.

What is the difference between Yield farming and Liquidity mining?

Jonas: And the mining aspect, what you were saying is like people would buy a lot of Apple products, even if they don't need it, because they want to get those shares. And that's kind of like what a lot of whales or people who are very deep into crypto and have a lot of crypto did the whole summer. And that's the liquidity mining. And now what is a yield farming in the same easy explained way? 

Raffael Huber: Basically liquidity mining is, uh, from a perspective of the protocol. Uh, they are offering this to their customers, if you will, to incentivize them to come there, and then yield farming is more from the side of the user.  To use  again, the analogy you would compare, how much shares you get from the different companies and you would then go and specifically buy maybe the products of a company, even if you don't need them and then maybe resell them on the secondary market. The crypto version of this is that you would just go to a protocol or you would look which strategies can you do that maximize really your annual yield or maybe also your daily yield?

Jonas: So it's like more the, the tactical way of taking advantage of those kind of protocols. Great. I think, I think what we touched on is really, um, makes clear that the DeFi space  it's super complicated and this podcast is aimed to make it more accessible for everyone. And one thing, a lot of people that come into the crypto space are confronted with, is that saying D Y O R do your own research 

DYOR - How to research promising new crypto projects?How deep does the average Joe have to go to have a good  grapple on what is a good project?

Raffael Huber: Honestly, I think quite deep. Um, but then. I think  the most important thing to understand about a protocol is usually what is the idea and what can it do if it works in the way that they describe it, because then if you decide that even if this works exactly how they describe, and that's usually not guaranteed and often comes with various technical hurdles, um, if even then  it's not a good project in your point of view, then that's already a killer.

Jonas: Like for instance, the blockchain for dental,

Raffael Huber: Okay.

Yeah. 

Jonas: medicine Denta coin Yeah. They wanted to do something, a blockchain, blockchain. What was that a blockchain about for, for dentists or something?

Raffael Huber: Yeah, it was just, I think it was to be used as a means of payment for dentists. I mean, I don't 

Jonas: know.

That's an extreme example of something, even if it works, it's just a stupid idea right?

Raffael Huber:  Yeah. And  then the other part comes also in  what would the value of the token be like, why should this be valuable? And in this case of, of this Denta coin, it will maybe just have been, uh, yeah, well, it's a means of payment, but you can just as easily use any other kind of payment So  there wouldn't have been much use to token and that's, that's always important to consider as well, like. If this works, why should this token be valuable? What ways to capture value does the token have? Is it either through, straight up, dividends? Or is it through some kind of buyback and burn?

The Shitcoin to Bitcoin spectrum

Jonas: but  when we have now this, uh, example of this ridiculous Dentacoin, and then what would be on the other side of that scale, what is like a very daring, cool project that tackles a big market and has a big potential, um, when it works, but it's unclear if it works? Do you have some examples there?

Raffael Huber: My immediate first thought was Bitcoin. If I had to say what's at the other end of the spectrum. What it's currently doing it does very well, which is to provide um, to provide some sort of a store of value, at least so far.

Um, And then, I mean, you can always look at, to come back to DeFi You can always look at the various tokens there. Um, you have, the governance tokens. Many of them don't have this real value capture mechanism yet. But since you are governing the protocol, you could implement something like that. Uh, That would also  be one example. If you think Defi will be big, then the various governance tokens might make sense. to hold I don't know.

Jonas: I dunno 

Digging a bit deeper into the governance token

Summarize the governance token, um, how I see it and correct me if I'm wrong, a governance token basically would give you the right for, let's say you have a popular DeFi application, for instance, for borrowing and lending. And now, um, usually those take a little fee, right? I mean, to use the protocol, you have to pay a tiny amount and if you would buy this governance token, the idea why this token should even have value is that you can start to vote and you have kind of like a say in the protocol and you can then say, Hey, I would like to increase the amount for instance  of the fee that people have to pay to people who hold this governance token, but wouldn't that incentivize people to basically install again, very costly kind of services, uh, just for their own good, like, isn't that exactly like installing again, the middleman?

Very competitive = low fees

Raffael Huber: Not really. Um, it's it's first of all, it's way more competitive margins are super compressed. So to be able to do anything like this, to install this sort of fee to, to, to charge a protocol rent, you need very strong network effects and you will be challenged. Like we have seen this with sushi swap, um, the other decentralized exchange where they added some incentives for people to come to them, and then people just moved. Uh, lots of liquidity was moving from Uniswap the other one, the other big one to SushiSwap So you need very strong network effects and it's a hyper competitive market and you really need some good arguments, why people should still use your protocol despite the fee. And that can only come in my point of view through network effects. So if you are integrated deeply with others, then maybe, maybe you can risk to charge a few basis points, but in the end because it's so competitive, it will be less expensive still, even if protocols charge some rent. And on the other hand, uh, that's maybe okay, that they won't be able to charge as much, because the market is also global, so you'll have potentially a lot of reach. So maybe that's fine then if you are in a very competitive market in charge of very thin margin only.

Tribalism for protocols but not for projects

Jonas:  I think that was quite interesting what you're saying that people like those yields farmers they always go where there's the best yield and they don't have like a loyalty, so to speak so much to a protocol. And that has been shown with Uniswap and SushiSwap where SushiSwap is just this clone basically and with this incentive, Um, just luring people away, from Uniswap and that's in a big contrast to  the other thing that's happening in crypto, where loyalty to a protocol is very deep. Like there's almost like a religious belief in some projects like Bitcoin, Ethereum that sometimes stand in conflict with each other. Um, how do you see that, like this tribalism in the crypto space and how does it affect your work?

Raffael Huber: Well, you know I think actually the tribalism is one of the worst things, but I think it's also necessary to some extent, because you know, there are the tokens that will have these kind of, uh, direct cash flows, let's say from a DeFi protocol. Where you can then reasonably calculate why they should have at least some value or if they could have some value.

And so on, um, but then there is the other part of the spectrum.

Monetary premium and why it's important

 Which is coins like Bitcoin or Ether, if they're just used for a medium of exchange, um, then they're probably not that valuable in the long run, but If they can accrue some kind of monetary premium.

And we have seen that in 2017. I think that's one of the reasons why we might have seen such a price increase in 2017 for Ether, because people were buying Ether in order to participate in the ICOs, uh, which have often been very profitable, uh, especially in the beginning. 

And then in this case, Ether was used as money, to participate in ICOs. And that's what I mean with monetary premium. If people start to be willing to hold it and to be willing to trust it also, that they will get exactly what they want from it and also at some point in the future, then the token could also build up a monetary premium.

And I think that's one of the key things to think about. Why should this be used as money? Why should this be seen as money? Because money is all about trust. Even our money. I mean, our currency currencies, like the Swiss Franc and the US dollar and so on is basically a promise on future tax returns, right?

So we are hoping that our economies grow fast enough if we print some more money and so on. That we can stimulate the economy. And I think that's also, that's also a big topic in crypto, like, which currencies are trusted and then to come back to the tribalism part, that of course helps. This  religiousness, about a certain currency strengthens your beliefs 

Now you're starting to see, um, some people getting quite maximalistic about Ethereum as well. And that's just something that comes maybe also with investing your own money. Um, because then you, just think about things  maybe a bit more emotional or it's harder to separate emotions from it.

Separating emotions from your investmentsJonas: Yeah, I feel that myself. I mean, I try to be open-minded to all the projects, but obviously I form my kind of bias. And when you follow certain people  on Twitter or you follow certain Reddits, you get into this bubble, right where you only enforce your own bias over and over again and I think it's kind of radicalizing you in a way. And as you said, if you have your own money at stake, there's somehow a different kind of connection, it's almost like maybe for a football club where people have also this kind of connection. Um, but there it's even deeper because, it really affects the bottom line  of your wealth right?

Thinking in grey scale but decide black and white

Raffael Huber: Yeah and you know, one of the like mental discrepancies that might build up is, um, if you're trying to be open-minded about a new project and a new idea , then usually that's, that's not black and white. That's somewhere on a grayscale. Somewhere between very, very good and very, very bad, but then if you need to make a decision, really, what, what should you do now?

Uh, it becomes very black and white because in the end, of course, you can, you can try to allocate your portfolio in a certain way you try to get this gray grayscale, et cetera done. But in the end  it's still a yes or no decision that everybody has to make for him or herself and then it becomes black and white. That's maybe some, something that's a bit hard.

Bull market - what is different this time?

Jonas: Hmm, uhm,  we are now in a bull market. Last one was really in 2017. Now we have another one. We almost had at the record time of this recording the Bitcoin almost went to all time highs again. Now it dropped a little bit again.

Um, first of all, what is different this time than last bull market? Do you see some differences and what does it mean for. somebody who is joinging now?

Institutional Interest

Raffael Huber: Um, for somebody who is joining now, I think one of the important things is try to understand the big ones first. Try to understand Bitcoin, try to understand Ethereum and then work your way down to other interesting projects. And then what's different this time?  This time around, you see a lot of also institutional interest. Known, macro investors, known hedge fund managers coming out and saying that Bitcoin is a reasonable hedge against inflation.

  You have people like the chief investment officer of fixed income of BlackRock uh, which is one of the largest asset management firms, on the globe, Rick Rieder come out and say, Bitcoin is here to stay and he thinks it's probably better than gold in some of the functions that it has.

 

 and that's something that's just incredible to think about how far the space has come and how people think about it going from a pure scam and that's only money for criminals and so on to Yes, this is an investible asset class, and, um, people really debating about the true benefits and drawbacks.

Jonas: What I get from your response also is that people are zooming in on Bitcoin, those investors, because it has this promise of being this store of value. All the gold in the world is now worth around 9 trillion US dollars and Bitcoin is only 300 billion. That's why it has room to grow. That's the simple way of thinking about it.

Um, is there a more sophisticated kind of way thinking about, let's say the value proposition of Bitcoin and how far it could really grow?

Raffael Huber: So I think most of the valuation models that people have tried to come up with are really not worth much, because Bitcoin is just deviating from its true valuation so often, that it really doesn't provide you much of an advantage. I think the comparison with gold is certainly worth a thought but in the long run, it really it's like it's, it's, it's kind of asymmetric in terms of what you can get. It's basically either Bitcoin works or it doesn't as a store of value. It goes back to the trust issue.

Like that's why, why those large funds maybe allocate to Bitcoin first, because it has gained much more trust than other newer cryptocurrencies, over the past more than 10 years. It's much easier to put your money in something that has been around for 10 years than something that has been around for five years.

And it's also, the Bitcoin is very unique in the sense that it was distributed in a very fair way. You could say.  Bitcoin has been mined since 2009 and everybody basically had the chance to participate and get some, so it is, it has a reasonable distribution as well.  There are many advantages that you can name for Bitcoin but the strongest one is trust.

In my point of view.

Why are so many undeserving projects in the top 10 marketcap?

Jonas: Hmm, when you go a little bit further down, um, to the next coins it gets, I don't know. I think you, you see that it's quite a young market still very quickly, because I think there are a lot of projects there, that maybe, don't necessarily deserve to be valued as they are. Let's say like a Ripple or a Litecoin or all those projects that just stick around all those kinds of like forks of Bitcoin.

Um, How do you see that? I mean, does that worry you a little bit, and also that they always move together. When Bitcoin goes up, everybody else also kind of, they're all seem to be correlated quite a lot.

Raffael Huber: No that doesn't worry me. Personally, I mean, I see it the same way and there are some coins, which I think, uh, I do not have that as much as a strong value proposition as others, but of course that's just my personal opinion. And, uh, in the end, uh, the markets are also just a voting machine in the, in the short run. There is this beautiful quote from Benjamin Graham, if I'm not mistaken, intelligent investor or so  from his book, and, um, basically one quote, there is markets are a voting machine in the short run and a weighing machine in the long run.

And that's something that's beautifully true in crypto because if there is hype around one thing, Then everybody votes and they vote with their money, that this should, this should be it now. And then you get these, these hype cycles, but in the long run, um, it's really important to think about what is the value really?

What is it that should make this token or coin valuable in two years, five years, 10 years, 40, 50 years maybe. And, uh, I think so, I don't see this as a problem.  I have more of a problem with people thinking they are smarter than the market. Um, because the markets are always right. They're always right. That's that's, that's like, if you are actively trading yourself, then never blame the market. It's always, you. Um, and because the market is just the sum of all participants  that collectively decides what something should be worth. And that's, again, going back to, uh, how we basically think about money.

Money is also just a construct of society, because, that's basically what we use to store work or value that we have provided in the past.

Should you hold or trade?

Jonas: Uh, very, very interesting. Um, for a beginner or not even beginner for an intermediary as well. Like would you say, hold on to the coins or trade?

Raffael Huber:  That that's something that everybody has to decide, for him or herself. Um, And just, I mean, just in general, whenever you try something that you are not, uh, professional in Uh, you usually don't start. Like if you, if you start climbing, you don't immediately go for, uh, the, Eiger-Nordwand or the Matterhorn or whatever.

I don't know actually, which, which paths are hard. 

Jonas: some nice Swiss references.

Raffael Huber: if you, if you're a chess player, you don't immediatly start by trying to beat Magnus Carlsen. You start small. And I mean, that's, that's just something general, I would say.

Hodling vs Trading - should you even trade cryptocurrencies?

Jonas: But that's a good analogy. I'm a Hodler myself and I believe that, uh, also as what you said, you cannot really beat the market because you are not really smarter than all of the other people combined. Um, and also in chess, you are now not smarter than the best chess computers anymore.

So wouldn't that mean, Hey, you shouldn't even try to trade, just go and hold on and make your bet that this market will go up.

Insider Trading

Raffael Huber: I mean, that's, that's so hard to say because, I mean, who are your enemies in the market basically? You don't know how much time people invest into things. I mean, if you think back, um, insider trading used to be legal, uh, back in the 

days.

Jonas: Oh, really? 

Raffael Huber: Yeah. Then you, you could actually say you have an informational advantage. There is an information assymetry, something other market participants don't know yet, and that you could expect them to react to once they know it. That kind of trading was profitable, which was also, uh, at the expense of the other investors, which is why it was made illegal.

And of course you don't have that in Bitcoin or Ethereum because, what kind of news could you know, that other people don't, that you are sure will have a strong market impact? That's something that just doesn't exist in my point of view.  If somebody wants to play it, play around a bit, but maybe don't put your entire net worth into one trade or so. Just  common sense.

Jonas: Cool, hey, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it. Where can people follow you if they want to know more about Bitcoin Suisse or your research, or maybe your own internet presence? I don't know if you're on Twitter or something like that?

Where can people find you?

Raffael Huber: Um, of course our website, BitcoinSuisse.com. So we have our biweekly newsletter, which is called BitcoinSuisse Decrypt.  There you can sign up and you will get an update every two weeks. We also have a yearly outlook, where we try to spot what's important in 2021. You can also find that on the research page. And then we also have fundamentals articles, which try to highlight really, the basics of each coin. And maybe just one more thing. The first season of Decrypt talks about many fundamental topics as well and if you're reading them, start from the very first and read them chronologically. I tried to build this in a way that if you read them in the order that they were published then it should make a lot of sense in the end.

 Outro

Jonas: If you listen until now, there's a good chance that you liked this episode. Please help to spread the word about Unforkable by rating it on Apple podcast, or even better become a super spreader by forwarding this episode to two people who you think might be interesting in hearing it, let's keep that R value above one when it comes to podcasts and crypto, while keeping it low for nasty viruses and misinformation. Thank you. 

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